The question is......
Does God allow this.....??? (world war, tsunami, suffering etc.)
This question came out of the context of us talking about things that had happened to us and Craig telling us about when he went to Auschwitz concentration camp as part of his peer mentoring scheme. We talked about what it had been like to visit a place where such atrocities had taken place and a question was raised as to whether God allows these things to happen.
When i was in year 10 on a German exchange we went to visit the camp at Dachau and i will remember the feeling of being in that place forever. It was such a place where you feel that if you talk loudly you are disturbing something very profound, so you talk in hushed voices and walk around very softly. while i was there i just felt really sad and it lasted for ages after i left the place. it was so peaceful but so utterly heartbreaking to realise what happened there. Did God let it happen?
Yesterday in theology we were talking about Does God Suffer?
There's so many questions going on in my head over this at the moment that i don't know what to think......so if you'd let me in on you're opinions that would be helpful....
I'd love to know what you think.
Does God allow suffering?
Can God suffer?
If Jesus was fully human, did he suffer?
if Jesus was fully God, could he suffer?
If God cant suffer and Jesus was fully God then what was the point of Jesus going to the cross?
......
think about it.....
can you see why my head hurts? that's just a starting point......
10 comments:
Hhmmm tough one Laura! I think some forms of suffering are completely our fault. In God's origional plan for this world, there was no suffering. But because we as humans sinned out of free choice, it was our fault that we spoilt this world forever. So in my opinion, most suffering in this world is our fault as humans....but God offers his immense love to us by offering us a second chance. He loves us so much that he sent his son to die on the cross so that we can have a true relationship with him again, and be given the gift of eternal life in Heaven, where there is NO suffering at all. So from that angle, I would say that God despises suffering because it wasnt his plan, but despite this, he offers his love to help us through it.
However, I believe that there's other forms of suffering which God has planned for us. For example, if you think back to Jonah, he kept running in the opposite way to God, and the only way for him to be saved was for God to punish him out of love. It took for God to put Jonah into the insides of a huge fish before he would truly turn to God. When inside the fish, he cries out to God "I was about to die so i cried out to you and you heard my voice" and "I thought I was locked in this prison for ever, but you saved me from the pit of death, Lord my God." So I think in this case, Jonah's suffering was defnitely planned, but had amazing consequences.
And finally, I think there's another sort of suffering that God uses to build our character. He knows every single thing about us...our strengths and our weaknesses....and I believe he puts us into difficult situations that are challenging specifically to us, so that we can build on that area that we struggle with. For example, someone who idolises money may suddenly find that they go from having loads to nothing, and it is only then that they realise that they shouldn't depend on money because it doesn't last for eternity. For example, Luke 6:32 says "If you love only the people who love you, what praise should you get? Even sinners love the people who love them." Its saying that if we're put in hard situations with people who persecute us and who we struggle with....take advantage of it! Show God's love to them :)
But most importantly, I think it's essential to remember that whatever happens in life, however much suffering we have to go through, God promises to be there with us, all the way. He says, "Come to me and I will give you rest" I'd really encourage you to read Psalm 37 too...it's too long to copy and paste but has a lot of really encouraging verses such as (vs 32) "The wicked lie in wait for the righteous, seeking their very lives; but the Lord will not leave them in their power or let them be condemned when brought to trial"
I hope that helps Laura, sorry I wrote so much...i sometimes find it hard to condense what I'm trying to say when explaining my opinions hehe! Take good care of yourself, lots of love, Sarah O.x
Oooh and also, I believe God and Jesus can both suffer because Jesus is part of God, and was sent to Earth to experience the human life. Also, it says in the Bible that we're made in God's image. I reckon he probably suffers when looking at us now...because he has such good plans for us here on Earth before we sinned. And Jesus must have suffered on the cross too.
I agree though, it really isn't a very easy topic to discuss....the amount of suffering in this world is incomprehensible, and on the increase all the time. I think we just have to put our trust in God and remember that he promises that Heaven won't be like this...and that all Earthly suffering is temporary. That's why it's so important to tell our friends etc about the Good News. Sarah.x
This may not help in the long run, but I have to try it out.
Does over whelming suffering exist? Of course it does you say. Wells let’s look at the other end of the human condition. Does overwhelming joy exist? Yes? Okay tell me about it. Party, Winning, Births, Alton Towers, Driving Test passing, name your owe.
Well they don't actually exits, they did exist but as you sit here thinking about it do they exist now?
Well yes they do, you can pop back in your mind, in your feelings and remember the thrill, feel the satisfaction. It still exists but we no longer exist in that time. It is still there to be visited. This assessment of joy leaves a lot of people saddened. All things must pass. Joy does not last, all our successes are turned to dust by time.
So also with saddening, disaster or evil, all are turned to dust with time. But you may visit the past at the concentration camp. All the sadness is still there it is just that we are out of it's time scale. It exists just as much as it ever did. It is only by understanding what we are and where we are, in time, that we can understand. Joy matters, it last forever; Suffering matters it lasts forever in it's own time.
There is no lasting pleasure in joy as we sail away from it in time; there is no lasting pain in suffering as time drags us to a new place.
As we step from the joys of our past to the to the suffering of the world, in my time mind machine our personality determines the weight we attach to either of the places we visit, and how we measure the joy against the sadness.
I fear this analyse may bring sombreness to your mind. For, what is the value of anything if we are always being pulled away form everything by our most powerful of enemies Time. It is when you can feel the powerlessness of our position in time that you can begin to understand the powerfulness of God.
God holds all the past present and future cuddled in His arms as an infant baby. No joy, no sadness is every lost. When we pass, form this period of time to the place of infinity with God, we will see all the smiles we have brought to everyone we passed and all the pain we tried to bring comfort to.
Nothing last, but everything last forever in the arms of God. If you can grasp that you can begin to understand how our Father feels as he holds his baby of life in his arms. He accepts all the weaknesses, failure, and evil, all the joy, happiness and charity that has ever to befallen the baby, because at that moment of total contentment He totally LOVEs all life.
Does God allow……..as he sits, holding the life He loves, He would not have it any other way for the totality of life brings forth from him an emotion large enough to over power everything. Love
Dxxxy j
I dont think god allows suffering but then you get the Huge arguement about free will weather or not.That if we have free will is god all powerful which i think is yes he just chooses not to interfer with human free will cos if he did then it would just be his will and then not free.As to can god suffer i think yes he can; if god cant suffer then how can he get angry because angry derives itself from a negative feeling like things that make u suffer and so god must be able to suffer because we all know he got angry.
Jesus did suffer that was te whole point of jesus coming to earth he came to take our sin and all our bad(if that was me id assume just a little bit of suffering came with it all)
all other qestions can be covered in above answers im not sure if im theologically right and i hope i am but i dont know my bible well enough so i cud be wrong but heres my opinion
Beaver XXX
theres a great guy in the bible who we must remember here, Job. God allowoed all suffering, he had it all. But God did it for a reson LOVE. Jesus himself was sent, to die, to suufer the worst death, why? LOVE 4 symple letters L O V E.
"For God so LOVED the world...." we all know the rest!
Jesus came that we may not have to suffer, but i do know that in 2006, in facyt every year i have suffered in 1 way or another, but i know that God was always with, through it all, in the thick and thin. i knew he had a plan.
"For i know the plans i have for you" declares the Lord "Plans to prospure, and not to harm, plans to give you hope and a future"
I will leave with the poem "Footprints
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints,
other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed
that during the low periods of my life,
when I was suffering from
anguish, sorrow or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints.
So I said to the Lord,
“You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you,
you would walk with me always.
But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
there have only been one set of footprints in the sand.
Why, when I needed you most, you have not been there for me?”
The Lord replied,
“The times when you have seen only one set of footprints in the sand,
is when I carried you.”
God Bless, and have a Great 2007 God will be with you!
Ben xxx
Yes God allows suffering. He gave us free will and some suffering is a result of human free will....things like the tsunami may be a result of global warming. However God also allows other suffering, to strengthen us in our faith. If life was plain sailing for us we would never see the need for God, we would live by our own strengths and means, whereas the tough times in our lives teach us to rely on God for our strength and build up our faith & strengthen our character. Read Romans 5. Suffering teaches us that we cannot live by ourselves, we must humble ourselves and seek God's almighty power.
1. Does god allow suffering?
Simple answer yes. everyone suffers in someway, at least from time to time. anyone who claims they don't is a liar, simple as. If god allows suffering, why? This depends on every person. Some view it as a test, fair enough. But why do some get tests far harder than others? anyway i could rant on about this for a very long time so shall move on so as not to overshadow the great author of the original post.
2.Can god suffer?
yes. If god excists and is able to interfere, then he must therefore be some kind of being. And any being can suffer. think of it like this, supose we accept that we are like gods children. Children can make their mothers suffer, whether intentionaly or not, equaly so for their fathers. Therefore as god is our creator we have the ability to make him suffer if he loves us, let me know if you don't fully understand that.
3.If jesus was fully human did he suffer? simple question, yes. How did he put up with so much suffering? the mind is a powerful thing, whether you believe it to be faith or not when someone believes something they can get through alot. i personaly recomend reading "jesus freaks" to support this. As jesus believed it was his job to 'save mankind' he must of been very determined to provide an inspiration for us to follow, hence how he coped with the suffering. Another example of jesus suffering is when he killed someone, suposedly with a look when he was sad and angry.
4.if jesus was fully god could he suffer?
yes. see question 2.
5. what was the point of jesus going to cross?
even if god can't suffer the point of jesus going to cross was to give an inspiration for people to follow, so they can better themselves. and to promote goodwill towards others. this i think has been done considering jesus' example is still shown today.
anyway thats my long answer to these, guessed who i am yet? (tis the person who commented on your beliefs again)
ok, yes i agree with what you say there, just one question, where is the bit about jesus killing someone, you say
'Another example of jesus suffering is when he killed someone, suposedly with a look when he was sad and angry.'
Maybe i'm just missing something.
(i said no guessing games!)
well he did didnt he, wen his mum died or something, looked at someone and killed them, n then brought them back to life. he was angry about something anyway
tis something like that, i may well be wrong though as can't recall reading it myself
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